Fran:

There are cracks in BOTH systems as well as horror stories.

 

 That may be, but it wasn't the Yanks who decided that they needed to put their noses into the Canadian Health Care "Debate". If it's ok for one side of the US debate to be aired on this board - then the dissenting view should be just as welcome.  

 

To whit:

 

Fran, kids are given priority - so what about adults? What happens when that adult who is in need of care comes to the top of the list and then a kid needs that same facility or treatment - does the kid get priority over someone one who's been waiting?That's an honest question not trying to argue.

 You can say what you want about our system, but I'll take this over Socialized care any day.  The US is not Canada, the UK, Denmark or any other country....we shouldn't have to run our country by their standards.

 

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Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
"Take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." E. Wiesel
OKP's Resident B****
Imprudens est draconem vivum de consiliis tuis omittere.
Steet team Leader for NYS, OH and Southern Ontario.

At what point did I say that dissenting views were not welcome? Since when do I run this board or this thread? Did I not say I wasn't taking sides?

YOU are the one who often jumps down the throats of those who disagree with you, hence the "please don't jump down my throat" that I posted previously, knowing full well you were the most likely to jump. Silly me, I should have known you would not allow anyone to dispute something you've said. It would appear that you think YOU run this board.

...At this point I am sure I have sent Andi off sputtering and hitting the reply button to retaliate without even finishing reading what I've posted but I'll continue anyway....

I was not arguing the point of whether or not this healthcare bill was a good or bad thing. I was defending my country which I have every right to do even if it dares go against your views. The second the President made it known that he planned to make changes to the US system, Canada was drawn into the battle. As I said, he has made it known himself that he has no intention of trying to turn the US systems into Canada's. He has said it won't work yet people opposed to him do nothing but slam our system, as you are doing now. I was pointing out that it is an exaggeration of the flaws in our system and I could just as easily exaggerate and slam the flaws in yours. 

Or are you saying there are absolutely no drawbacks to the US system? No problems at all to report?

How about debating the specifics of what is actually being proposed in the bill instead of simply stating over and over again that you don't want the Canadian, British, or Danish systems that have absolutely nothing to do with it? 

They were right about this not being the proper topic for this board simply because it's a hot button topic in which tempers easily flare and the denizens of the OKP have proved time and again that no one can have a civilized conversation about anything around here if so much as one person disagrees. 

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"I see you in the front row, bouncing up and down, you're ripped and ready for a night downtown." ~ Margarita
What's wrong with a little flirtation?

Monster Tee

Fran I am not the one who has made a personal attack against you. YOU have done exactly that. 

 And if one person ( and I am not saying you did) can post their views of the US system, then it's fair game for the Canadian system to be up for examination too.   And if one person can attack not only the health care system of my country, but the country itself ( we're apparently weak because we don't share one peson's views, elsewise why would be have to "become a strong country"  and "afraid of change" which is an attack on the citizens not just a government system. )  with their opinions,,,,,why should I not be able to compare what I don't like about your system, especially since the Canadian system was brought into it by a Canadian - the Yanks were discussing what they don't like about/their impressions of  socialized medicine in general. Canada was brought up by someone else entirely.

 

 

And you still have not answered the question I posed to you. It was an honest question.

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Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
"Take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." E. Wiesel
OKP's Resident B****
Imprudens est draconem vivum de consiliis tuis omittere.
Steet team Leader for NYS, OH and Southern Ontario.

My last post was a personal attack against you because I'm tired of your general pissiness to anything I post that dares contradict anything you say. If I was a self-centred person, I'd swear you follow me around this board looking for reasons to attack me because this certainly isn't the first time. On top of that, you always seem to jump higher when I'm actually attempting to stay neutral.

My first post was to defend the attacks against my country, it wasn't a personal attack on anyone. Your reply to it, however, was. You, once again, accused me of saying and doing something I did not. I did not stick my nose into the debate itself because, as I've said it's none of my business, slams against my country, however are. I am not saying someone has no right to air their views about the Canadian system, but I have the right to respond and say why I think they are wrong (or rather, not entirely right) in what they've said. I was merely hoping to straighten out some implied mis-information that someone reading these posts who doesn't know as much about our system as others might presume is the absolute truth.

Everyone can argue this healthcare topic until they are blue in the face and no on will change anyone else's mind about it. Which is another good reason for me to not engage in the actual debate itself. 

As for the question itself, I presume you mean the priority thing? I apologize, I didn't properly express myself, priority was not the proper word. I jumped because I did not like the implication that sick children are left to suffer or die on waiting lists because our socialized healthcare is "rationed" (and have received no explanation myself of the use of the word). There is nothing that will get someone opposed to changes to the US system more worked up than the idea of a child suffering and wanted to say that it, too, is an exaggeration.

A child suffering from cancer or needing things like MRI's doesn't have to wait like an adult would, not because they are put ahead of adults like I originally implied, but because they have greater access. Children's hospitals are greater equipped, not because they get more funding from the gov't, but because they often do more for fundraising and get more donations. People are more like to donate to help a sick child than an adult so they have more money for staff, testing, and equipment. I'm not saying it never happens because our system is perfect but, as you admitting yourself, there are cracks in your system too. 

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"I see you in the front row, bouncing up and down, you're ripped and ready for a night downtown." ~ Margarita
What's wrong with a little flirtation?

Monster Tee

Fran - did n't accuse you of anything... I quoted one sentence of  your post and kind of agreed with you, while making the point that both sides in this debate should be ok to air.  There  have been several posts saying it should not be discussed here.  Sorry if you mis-interpreted what I was trying to get across.  Too many thoughts going through my mind at once I guess.   And I seperated  the paragraphs between the question to you and the comment about the US not being another country be because they are two totally different topics, in my mind. I hoped the distance between them would make it clear that I wasn't relating them.  I am sorry for the un-clarity.  I really wasn't trying to make you feel attacked....I was genuinely interested in your answer.  Candian politics and policy has long been an interest of mine...and I'll discuss it til the cows come home.

  Over here Fran, we get a totally different view of your health care system than you do,,,,even those who cross the boarder darn near every weekend...even those of us who have dealt with Canadians here accessing our system via OHIP ( and I've had several clients who were CDN  when I was doing home care.)

 

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Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
"Take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." E. Wiesel
OKP's Resident B****
Imprudens est draconem vivum de consiliis tuis omittere.
Steet team Leader for NYS, OH and Southern Ontario.

My Canadian health care system may be flawed but I love it... I did have a high risk pregnancy with my last son, He was premature by 10 weeks, I was in a high risk bed a month prior to him being born, I had my own nurse, 24-7 in a $20,000 a night bed and yes that is the right amount... when Braydin was born, he was in NICU for a month before going home and in no doubt in my mind had the best of the best looking after him, meds, equipment, oxygen, supplies (diapers, formula etc.) was there...  AT NO COST OUT OF MY POCKET... plain and simple...I needed the care, I went to the hospital... done... if I had to pay for that... I'd still be paying probably till my dying day... I am sure I pay for it in taxes.. but I'd rather do that then have to fork over $100's if not $1,000 of dollars...

My dad in February had a quadruple bypass surgery after having a heart attack in December... called 911, went to the hospital had every test imaginable within hours... He didn't pay for a thing... he was healthy enough after the heart attack with the 'shunt' in him that he did not need emergency bypass surgery... if he did need it, he would of got it...  

I could not even think that if I didn't have the money to take my kids to the doctor because I had no money in my account... that would break my heart... sorry kids, have to wait till payday to take you to the doctors?? and maybe this is my ignorance.. but that just seems wrong...

There are waiting lists yes, but if your need is more then ANYONE on the list... you get moved up... I too felt the need to defend my healthcare system... flaws... yes, perfect... no, right for us as a pay cheque to pay cheque family... YES...

I have not a clue what is going on in the USA... sorry for my ignorance... I don't know how the US health system works now (as I never lived there), or how this change is different... change is scary but most times for the better...

 

On the GBS topic... Calgary... is 20 odd days away... I"m surprised I don't have that calculated lol...

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~Is a downtown girl cuz I like waking up with my hair messed up!!!

CanadianLisa:

On the GBS topic... Calgary... is 20 odd days away... I"m surprised I don't have that calculated lol...

 

 Bad,GBS Fan Bad

 Changing Topics ( posting that just to be clear. )

 As far as how that would work in the US. It would depend on the state.  NYS has mandated that pregnancy and delivery be covered under the mother's health care plam, if mom does not have a health care plan, medicaid will cover everything.  Actually, medicaid in NYS is a fantastic thing.  If you are on it you pay little to nothing for anything, including transportation. It's one of the biggest things that comes up when talks of cutting medicaid costs come up - cutting transport by cab.  When my uncle needed a heart transplant  and his insurance did want to cover it ( at that time it was experimental ) medicaid covered it - and no he did not loose his home or car or go bankrupt.  There are ways to access this system and it's a wonder to deal with. BTW my job and the jobs of several folks in my company are funded almost entirely by medicaid - because it provides our clients with the Health Aides they need go to work, even in a sheltered workshop.  The scope of our public option care is enormous already.

 For anyone who has an unemployed/underemployed/uninsured loved one  - try and get some help through Catholic Charities or some such to navigate this system.  And even if you don't qualify for medicare most states do have state sponsored health insurance, that while the costs may seem a bit high, are based on family size and income and cover MUCH more than what most employers give.

 Oh, to whomever, talked about the vets...they are covered by the VA for life. Their families might not be, but the vet's themselves are. ( My dad was in Korea, he was covered til the day  he died, as were the uncles that fought in WWII, and my Best Friend who served in the First Gulf War) The families should be covered by either medicaid or state insurance if they need it.  

 

And for my contribution to the off topic sub thread. Does anyone else here think that Law and Order goes just a tad too far sometimes into the realm of unnecessary gore?  I love the show but......

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Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
"Take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." E. Wiesel
OKP's Resident B****
Imprudens est draconem vivum de consiliis tuis omittere.
Steet team Leader for NYS, OH and Southern Ontario.

Born and raised here in the US. I haven't had steady health insurance and therefore check ups since I left home. And now, I am a single mom of 2, getting ready to file for bankruptcy in part due to health bills from my son's birth. I have a stress related disease that our US insurance companies don't even recognize because you can't treat it with pharmaceuticals. And am now, with my kids, on state benefits. I finally have some peace of mind that we can get taken care of. I was finally able to take my kids to a dentist. My daughter finally got her adenoids out. And I only had to work on getting better when I can down with meningitis 2 months ago.  But all of that will be taken away as soon as I get a better job. Having health insurance doesn't mean you can use it. Until health insurance is actually complete health coverage, it will be unsuitable for anyone.

 From what I can tell, this health bill is flawed but it is the step, A step, in the right direction. I'll take it! 

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When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and it’s speaker, a raving lunatic.” -Dresden James

I think I get lost when the word 'insurance' is used... we don't have 'insurance' we have healthcare... we don't pay for it, it is there... we have 'insurance' for our medicine, like I have blue cross so I pay 80% of my medicine when I need it... I do pay for blue cross montly though.. not everyone has it, if you don't have it then you pay full price for medicine.. but we have heathcare... here... that is FREE... (paid for by taxpayers) but FREE non the less... maybe that is were I get confused... lol..

And to regain myself as a worthy GBS fan... 18 sleeps =) Sorry andi, I don't watch Law & Order...

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~Is a downtown girl cuz I like waking up with my hair messed up!!!

In case you are wondering, this is why I felt attacked:

andi"][quote user="Fran:

There are cracks in BOTH systems as well as horror stories.

 

 That may be, but it wasn't the Yanks who decided that they needed to put their noses into the Canadian Health Care "Debate". If it's ok for one side of the US debate to be aired on this board - then the dissenting view should be just as welcome.   

It was a quote by me followed, space or not, by a reply agreeing with what I said, followed by (no space) you mentioning CDN's sticking their noses in & the implication that I had a problem with people airing different opinions. My problem was not the airing of opinions, it's with the implication/exaggeration/mis-information that sometimes pop up when people are debating things, I was trying to clarify some of it. If that is not what you meant, I apologize but that is most definitely what it sounded like (to me, anyway) and, as it happens to me often, I am quick to defend myself. 

On the subject of veterans (though I'm not sure how it popped up) the way it works here in Canada is that a veteran begins with the EXACT same coverage as the average person. Hospital stays, MRI's, etc are covered same as for non-veterans. Things expand beyond that depending on how long they served, how old they are, what wounds they received, etc. Some WWII veterans have complete coverage. Medicine is paid, visits to the house by nurses if necessary, home-living aids (like a bar for the bath) someone to come in and clean your house even. Someone who only served a few months in the 80's who got shrapnel to the nose because a bomb went off near them, has the basics plus anything to do with their nose covered (even things like a sinus rinse for their cold even if it has nothing to do with their injury) but don't have the rest of their meds covered. (In QC other meds will be partially covered by the QC drug insurance plan but the nose meds would be completely free). As more veterans die of old age, more newer veterans are having their coverage expanded to include more things.

How does it work in the US? I only know what I see on Law & Order when a veteran gets himself into trouble because he's denied veteran coverage. 

Personally I think they main problem with this debate, like I mentioned before, is that the likelyhood of anyone's minds changing by anyone else's argument, no matter how well stated, is highly unlikely. You may succeed in getting someone not directly involved (i.e. Canadians) to rethink their views but very few voting Americans will. It's a case of the Haves vs the Have-Nots made worse by the fact the the middle class is being split in half. Unlike most Have and Have-not problems it's not just the rich against the poor. The middle class is split because some have insurance and some don't or have children who don't. The Haves are too afraid to lose what they have to change their views and the Have-Nots have, literally, nothing to lose and the idea that they may get something is too strong.

It's a topic that could cause a very dangerous rift in the country and, no matter how you feel about him, I think you have to admire the President's bravery for trying to make changes that could cause so much trouble. The status quo would have made him much fewer enemies with the Have-Nots than he's making with the Haves and he knows he may not see another term because of it.

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"I see you in the front row, bouncing up and down, you're ripped and ready for a night downtown." ~ Margarita
What's wrong with a little flirtation?

Monster Tee

So we share the same temperament....that could make for some fun debates.   Honestly Fran, there is much I'd like to talk to you about. CDN policy first and foremost. This thread is just not a good place for that, me thinks.

 

 As for how it works in the US.  It vets are covered...if they apply, through the VA. Many times with better coverage than the average person. For instance, my best friend served in the first gulf war - he's covered for everything via the Veteran's Administration here.  Dental, Glasses, Psych (if he should need it) Rehab for any health care issue that should come up - service related or not.  For instance Sean had what he thought was an allergic reaction and went to the VA - all testing was done, xrays, bloodwork,  ect  and it turned out to be something else entirely.  Are there homeless vets doing with out health care, sure there are - just as there are in most countries. 

  Interestingly - most of the folks I know that have insurance are for this measure, it's the ones with out - or who have been with out for long terms that are most against it. But everyone's experience will vary depending on who they know. 

 Lisa, when you hear of health insurance here, think of your Blue Cross ( we actually have a company here called Blue Cross that is a health insurance company) it's likely works the same way. Since the US very little had any health insurance until the height of the Unions - it became a popular benefit in the 40's and 50's when the economy was booming and many employers paid for it in full. So there was no need for a Government plan. (BlueCross and Blue Shield started in 1932 but few had it. In 1954 the government started including disability in Social Security deductions and in 1965 they created the Medicare ( for Seniors) and Medicaid for ( the poor and disabled - this is what funds many of the jobs like Home care, groups homes have funding in part by this, ect and all the group home residents' health care needs are paid for by this) In 1965 - most heath care costs were paid by individuals and companies - I remember my parents paying for my care and that of my grandma by way of Visa. 

 There was a massive switch from private companies who had a fee for service set up to a managed care model by employers, at this point most Yanks with employer sponsored coverage are in a managed care program.  The reason why so many are having issues at this point is that many companies are struggling at this time and are trying to cut costs. One big way to do this is to cut health care costs. Another reason why folks are having a hard time paying for their health care needs is that there are few, if any, affordable options that are not employ or government sponsored. Between the struggling economy, the devaluation of the dollar and the higher costs of health care ( caused in part by the first two) many people and companies are in the same boat.  Another issue is that these companies are making massive profits and paying out very large bonuses to their executives -if instead they lowered premiums everyone would benefit, more folks would be able to afford it, ect. ect. And that is but one alternative to Obamacare ( or NameyourpoliticianofchoiceCare or what have you) Can you tell that this has been a topic of discussion in my family for years?

 I find much to admire about Obama his stance on health care is not one of them.  I wish he'd spend the same amount of passion on repealing the No Child Left Behind Act or finding away to end the war -  but still get Osama.  I don't want much to I? 

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Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
"Take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." E. Wiesel
OKP's Resident B****
Imprudens est draconem vivum de consiliis tuis omittere.
Steet team Leader for NYS, OH and Southern Ontario.

This is a HOT topic.

In my case, my employer pays a contribution to my insurance - but then they also deduct $ from my paycheck...and THEN I still have Dr office copays and scrip copays - even WITH insurance, it is likely to cost me roughly $60 just to see the Doc and get meds.  (after I've laready shelled out 60 bucks a month just to HAVE isnurance!)  I generally DON'T go to the Doc unless I absolutely HAVE to. 

To insure my kids and spouse would cost me HALF MY MONTHLY INCOME!!!!!  That is just NUTS - and then we still would have Co-pays!  It is not sensible to insure them, at that rate.  Luckily they have stayed healthy and safe from any injuries (at least the kids have - spouse just suffers, not necessarily in silence either)

Here's the kicker:  I make JUST enough that we don't qualify for Medicare any more!  So there is NO option for the working poor like myself and my family - except out-of-pocket health care. 

In the US, however, ANY ONE CAN get health care.  Hospitals will not and CAN NOT deny you care.  They have programs for indigent people...they write off huge bills that people can not pay. 

Insurance companies and pharmaseutical companies are a HUGE part of the problem.  THEY are the ones who are making the cost of Helath care skyrocket.

I don't follow politics and figure that my opinion wont change ANYTHING Washington does, so I just sit back and wait to see what The Powers That Be hand down to us. 

Now - the real issue is how we as a culture deal with how we care for (OR prolong the dying of) dying people - and babies that NATURE says shouldn't be alive.    For example - my FIL died last year.  In his last 48 hours of life doctors determined he needed $80,000 worth of care...medicaid funds...and they knew he was dying.  How much good did that do? None.  It just spent more gov't $$$ uneccesarily.   When this bill goes through, I wonder how we as a country will look at those kind of issues?

 But that is a can of worms too big to open here I think.

And I don't care if you agree with me, or not.  I don't care if you slam me for my opinions.  They are mine.  No one will change that.  You are entitiled to yours - I don't care what it is, and I don't want to change it either.   

Fran and Andi - I am glad to see that this didn't go as sour as it looked like it might have!

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Helen




I'm goin' Straight to Hell-On-Wheels!

Helenwheels:

Fran and Andi - I am glad to see that this didn't go as sour as it looked like it might have!

We didn't want Nanny Helen kicking us out of the Kitchen and sending us to bed without our suppers :) 

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"I see you in the front row, bouncing up and down, you're ripped and ready for a night downtown." ~ Margarita
What's wrong with a little flirtation?

Monster Tee

Fran:

Helenwheels:

Fran and Andi - I am glad to see that this didn't go as sour as it looked like it might have!

We didn't want Nanny Helen kicking us out of the Kitchen and sending us to bed without our suppers :) 

And I am glad I didn't have to resort to drastic measures to keep you young whipper-snappers in line...now go clean your rooms till I call you for dinner! ;-)

 

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Helen




I'm goin' Straight to Hell-On-Wheels!

Helenwheels:

This is a HOT topic.

In my case, my employer pays a contribution to my insurance - but then they also deduct $ from my paycheck...and THEN I still have Dr office copays and scrip copays - even WITH insurance, it is likely to cost me roughly $60 just to see the Doc and get meds.  (after I've laready shelled out 60 bucks a month just to HAVE isnurance!)  I generally DON'T go to the Doc unless I absolutely HAVE to. 

To insure my kids and spouse would cost me HALF MY MONTHLY INCOME!!!!!  That is just NUTS - and then we still would have Co-pays!  It is not sensible to insure them, at that rate.  Luckily they have stayed healthy and safe from any injuries (at least the kids have - spouse just suffers, not necessarily in silence either)

Here's the kicker:  I make JUST enough that we don't qualify for Medicare any more!  So there is NO option for the working poor like myself and my family - except out-of-pocket health care. 

In the US, however, ANY ONE CAN get health care.  Hospitals will not and CAN NOT deny you care.  They have programs for indigent people...they write off huge bills that people can not pay. 

Insurance companies and pharmaseutical companies are a HUGE part of the problem.  THEY are the ones who are making the cost of Helath care skyrocket.

 

That to me is absurd that you must pay for health care to see a doctor... or lets rephrase that.. I can't wrap my mind around it... we don't have insurance like I said...we have a health care SYSTEM... when you are born, you get a card with a number on it we call it here, in Alberta, an Alberta Health Care Card, lol you fill it out when your baby is born as with a million other forms ... lol.. plain and simple this number follows you where ever you live in Alberta. If I were to move to a different province I would just apply to get a BC for example Health Care Card... FREE... when I go to the doctors, I am greeted by a nurse who asks for my card, not my cheque book, in return they tell me to wait my turn in the short of things, it don't matter if I am low income, middle income or the wealthy. If I go to the hospital I am greeted by a triage nurse to assess me, then wait my turn... the only time I pay money is for my medicine which in my last post I meant to say Blue Cross pays for 80% of my meds as I have pharmacy insurance... My kids have pharmacy insurance through Indian Affairs which is a whole other can of worms lol.. because they are Status Indians they don't pay for things like medicine, glasses or dental, they get that status from their dad who is Status and for that I am truly grateful... but I can also put them on MY Blue Cross if need be (they are on my dental plan as my employer pays for it as a family).  We can also get the same kind of pharmacy insurance through my husbands work... but we opt out as we really don't need 3 types of coverage...

 

Thats how it works here and I think it is pretty much the same for the rest of Canada... I hope that one day, nobody gets left behind and gets the medical coverage they deserve for free (I know it is not free, I pay for it as a tax payer, but in essence it is 'free') =)

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~Is a downtown girl cuz I like waking up with my hair messed up!!!